But adding the concept of God to the mix , *God is inhabiting the warm water, so im mystically being helped by it and on my way to becoming a Superhero for God. I suspect that even MacDonald started out with good intentions (maybe), but when the accolades and money started streaming in started gambling with success. You have my phone number,. No more circumcision. If she ends up with child porn on her computer which she can just barely turn on to view Facebook Im going to guess JMac or somebody planted it. It is time people reclaimed their role as the new priesthood, with no need for interceders, and kicked the false, self-serving, spiritually abusive charlatans to the curb, whether they call themselves elders, pastors, priests or Grand Poobahs. A narcissist is very good at manipulating people, and very patient. im proud to be human. Even during confusion, never-ending drama, attacks and You participated in making what is now a public mockery (an absurd misrepresentation) of the holy the gospel of Jesus Christ. No more tithe. In 2008, the church was listed by Outreach magazine as one of the 100 fastest-growing churches in America. I dont get the impression that Dee is OK with Hall at all. Acts 20:17, Paul called the elders. 1 Peter 5:1, Peter exhorted the elders. It is never one individual who rules over the church, but a group of people, the elders. So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? His client, the alleged molester, told him they were false. Hard to imagine that they would ever voluntarily fission into smaller groups. 20 years for me. The restoration of truth is the one thing that brings healing. Truth the WHOLE truth is the only antidote. Thompson started questioning MacDonalds spending in 2006, when he saw the pastors home in Inverness featured in Chicago magazine. Feb 14, 2022 . Remember, God is the master designer!!. Wartburgers, perhaps they are coming to a church near you! And are angry. Thats too deep to answer. IDK what the other XLT staffers and Elders are waiting for, but they will be judged if these wolves are allowed to set up new lairs due to their silence. Speaking about things which are painful ultimately helps us to learn, heal, and move on. Dallas Jenkins, He will spend years building a good rapport before gradually working toward his true agenda. They tolerate whatever they must (loud music, annoying demands for money, sermons that go in one ear and out the other) in order to establish a community of friends and support in a cold world in which family is often spread across the continent. Not for money or fame but just because you want to show them love. I realize people are suffering from pain and confusion, but now is not the time to be silent. (Many self-claimed Reformed do not really know or embrace the God their theology demands, so its not an issue.) And not many have truly repented I think. Most of those Ive heard and experienced who tout elder-rule polity will say that this passage says anything but pew peons having any say in elder or pastor selection and/or accountability. Their churches were of human origin, they failed. Its not all of it, but its certainly a substantive portion. Several decades is quite a long time for a good, biblical non-hierarchical to hold on. https://theelephantsdebt.com/2017/06/19/headed-to-the-big-house-for-the-sake-of-jesus/. But if these offices are wrong it means the wheels fell of of the Church extremely early in its history. In September of 2012, we experienced another provision of God, in the form of the Scottish Rite Cathedrala historical landmark we reclaimed for the gospel in the heart of Chicagos Gold Coastwhich became the Chicago Cathedral Campus. And it appears that this started with the first generation after the original apostles since Ignatius was discipled by the Apostle John and Clement was trained under Peter and James. Im, however, convinced that the original disciples didnt completely understand what Jesus intended, nor were they able to carry out His intentions without sin in the mixture. Noevangelical, lets get a bunch of our favorite beverages, cheese, olives, chocolate, cigars and a candle and well continue on. Vincent: Satin has really pulled the wool over your eyes. As my friend says, suck it up buttercup., Max: I believe if Jesus was here today, He would be sitting around the campfire drinking beer with the boys!, In all likelihood, He probably would be. generous. TS00: I dont know, if one follows Twitter, there are several who have commented that attended church with JMac in his youth, and they have nothing positive to say about him or his character from way back. But not genuine relationships. Vincent: Man if you are looking for a physical church to be perfected and wholly sanctified, by mere men, you will be disalusioned. The word contains with it a reference to age. Again, like you, I am aware anew of Gods presence in many different places and people, and recently most poignantly in marginalized communities and people. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth? Luke 18:8. Ken F (aka Tweed): Vincent is a coward: came to an old thread less likely to be read and didnt stick around to answer for his comment. You have not fully recognized the level of evil that you eagerly participated in in order to promote yourself riding on the coattails of a famous narcissist and personally enrich yourself unrighteously with tithes that the New Testament does not even teach. FOR WITHOUT THEM ONE CANNOT SPEAK OF THE CHURCH. * Apparently, many of the leaders sent their kids to Harvest Academy and there is fear that their kids will be thrown out of school. The church (ecclesia) had little say in eldership or pastor. I would like to believe, and I think theres pretty good textual evidence that this is valid, that what Jesus and the apostles intended (and that apparently did not continue for very long after the passing of the apostolic generation) was that the hierarchy would be a hierarchy of self-giving. Max: Praise God for TWW and other watchblogs who do their best to get the word out on these guys, but you cant stop the spiritually illiterate from attending their exciting churches. Dallas Jenkins: It was given to the elders two months ago. Craig French: Thanks for confirming the authenticity of the content, Dallas. It was not just Jmac who was enriching himself. And the Christians who took Bibles and Tracts into the theaters for a little Soul-Winning(TM) after the movie had softened up the marks. But I still hold to my opinions, and consider them at least worthy of consideration for those who look at this mess and wonder how we got here. Do you mean it was given to those elders who assisted in helping JMac continue on with his antics? That incident was only the tip of the iceberg. All that we could come up with was that we, and they, were faithful and generous givers and attenders of the mens bible study. We must realize that there are certain qualifications given concerning elders. of course lightning bolt messages from God come about as often as seas parting. ++++++++++++++++. He already gets $500K tax free per year in deferred comp, plus reportedly around $200K tax free in parsonage allowance. Example: I use my actual name on Twitter. You do not have to be a member of some man-made institution to be a child of God. Since I hate group think, we did not go. Because of pain. More Events. . Rich: I just know that if one of the callers in my English Country Dance or Contra Dance communities was screaming at people or even talking in a consistently rude way, that would not stand for a day, let alone years. Truth is real. In 2001, the Crystal Lake Campus began as the second Harvest church plant then transitioned to a campus, officially launching on September 1, 2007. I am not Eastern Orthodox but I have been looking into it. sober-minded able to teach Sadly, it is not uncommon to find that in time of great loss, the church is not really there for them after all, that in case of health problems that make one unable to serve, they are quickly forgotten, that the great majority of those friendships have a tendency to evaporate or even turn to shunning if put to the test; that it was all a grand illusion, after all the time, effort and loyalty invested. . Jesus talked a LOT about living in the Kingdom we would do well to read His words living in the church doesnt always mean living in the Kingdom. I do sometimes wonder if we read the same Bible. So this ole guy is here until the Lord moves me along or my comments stop making sense (please tell me if they do). (baby dont hurt me no more) Maybe JMs associates and enablers thought the most loving thing was to go along with JM for the sake of the everlasting benefits in heaven that would be experienced in the future by the people who were being abused, manipulated, fleeced here under the sun, but who nevertheless were hearing the gospel (as they understood gospel), even though it looks to us like it was being preached from false motives. He didnt know there were Wartburgers standing by who would get the last word! I read an article yesterday about small mainstream churches driven to the wall by the migration to the megas being forced to lease their vacant during the week facilities to small businesses in order to generate enough income to keep the doors open. Pathetic at best. He didnt. He did this knowing that I was qualified for neither. He is son of celebrated Left Behind author Jerry Jenkins. Lol. He made his directing debut with the short film Clich, and his next short film, Midnight Clear, starring Stephen Baldwin, won a Crystal Heart Award from the Heartland Film Festival. Churches will line up for this. Vague and almost never supported accusations, e.g., the posting of it on this website is unfortunate, as are many of the false rumors in the commentshere is always, in my experience, just a smear from someone whos actually rather cowardly and just looking to defame. You have any lies and untrue rumors to highlight that are being spread here, out with them. Max: I suspect that even MacDonald started out with good intentions (maybe). Or maybe their model for doing church is wrong? Ive got to process that letter. My current frustration, as someone who wants to get it right, is not knowing how to get it right in light of all the historical evidence. Hang on. Being a first-world country has its pitfalls on several fronts not least of which is being able to find a real-deal Church of the Living God. so, for sensible folks (like you and me) who actually remember the simple meaning of the gospel (the bridge built between us and God so we can know each other in real time, every day), it is only logical to assume Paul is no more unique than all the others who are part of the enormous harvest mentioned in the NT. Im sure it depends on the setting and the ministry of the church. . be a spiritual failure, Are you kidding me right now? Neither Dean Butters nor I wanted our letters published. Ive never felt a humbling that felt particularly good, at least short-term. I suspect that all of this is true, and more. The man most likely is considering launching a new ministry and needs to be stopped in his tracks. Suggesting that the church do away with the building would be met by much weeping and gnashing of teeth. I feel like Jesus is a million miles off, and I know thats got to me my fault, not His, because frankly, I ignored Gods nudges at each and every abusive church we attended (there were three), its not like I can blame Him. Rolling Meadows, Elgin, Crystal Lake, Chicago Cathedral, Harvest en Espaol, Online. I have yet to find any kind of human organization that has not found a way to run amok. a word for when you throw up a basket of fruit and everything settles in a different place, and youre confused because you understood each thing in relation to all the other things. This disturbing senior pastor made fun of other HBC church leaders for their physical attributes that he deemed not up to snuff with his obvious sartorial sense and unsurpassed personal good looks. I, personally, do find truth to be something to rejoice in. But hundreds of others have similar testimony. I understand He loves us to infinity as my 6 year old likes to say, but it sure wouldve been nice if pastor had given parents of small children some kind of warning. Lowlandseer: The elders [PRESBUTEROS] who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder [PRESBUTEROS] and a witness of the suffering of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed; shepherd [POIMEN] the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers [EPISKOPOS], not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly. (1 Peter 5:1-2). You wanted your letter to remain in the dark and hoped that no one would know of your hidden statement. Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain as well (, Ex HBC staff, thank you for sharing your pain. As both Luke and Peter write, they use all three Greek terms in the same context, regarding the same office, filled by the same men. Dont ever feel like your input here is ever wasted. Leaders raging, even with kids; no one doing anything but continuing to pay. Wow. ++++++++++++++++++++++. Indeed, the simplest act of love and kindness can be profound when we simply remove all the trappings and rules of organized religion. If for no other reason than to explain the rise of Christianity in an empire that opposed it. None of us called Christian should reach the last chapter of life and still be asking What is truth? dont let the mere teachings of men distract you from finding it read the red and pray for revelation! Jenkins is jealous that he couldnt run the con as well as Jmac. If I find solace anywhere, its in the quiet moments of solitude and silence wherein I sense anew that the mysteries of life are vast, and that my continued pursuit of that which is beautiful and simple and true is enough for now. These head pastors will gladly pay SM large fees in exchange for helping them become secret multi-millionaires. You and the other TWW regulars feel like family. Its your choiceAnonymity is not the same thing as cowardice, but thanks so much for playing that tired old game. Agreed. 2 -. Otherwise, of course theyd have told us what was untrue. JDV: This verse came to mind: For it is the time for the judgment to have begun from the house of God; and if from us first, what will be the outcome of those disobeying the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17) The business-first model that seems so pervasive and knocks down just about any scrutiny until there is videotaped evidence would seem to fit somewhere in that spectrum, no? I assure you that I do not see it as a Catholic problem, nor do I believe that all involved in the institutional church through the centuries have done so with wrong intentions. i take no more stock in what paul thinks than i do in what i think. John: JMac should never pastor another church ever. . My current frustration, as someone who wants to get it right, is not knowing how to get it right in light of all the historical evidence. I read that as a statement, not a post open for discussion, and an appeal to stop the speculation and kibitzing over a tragic situation. Dallas failed to mention that Fred Adams, James MacDonald and Luke MacDonald were listed as Producers for one of his film projects. Once you step out of that or can no longer take part, the machine moves on without you. The mega-masters vocalize Jesus occasionally and even talk about Him from a gospel vantage point. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. Because he met the qualifications for eldership? Dallas, I have news for you. A continual cycle without end. elastigirl: this is because the powerbrokers have the mic, Reminds me of something an old saint whispered to me on our way out of a contentious church business meeting You shouldnt give the devil the microphone., elastigirl: the powerbrokers have everyone brainwashed that the institution is too big to fail. Thats it right there. In church context, it may even be worse than the secular business context because in addition to the objective institutional power wielded by the narcissist CEO, there is the presumption of divine authority which legitimates the misuse of power. It seems to me that there is a serious idolatry issue at HBC. When will the madness end?! Thats the reason Adams concocted his scheme. Oh, they couldnt get away with that completely. And of course you. Jimmy Evans, Head of Marriage Today TV & Sr Pastor and Apostle of Gateway Church, is reportedly in contact with James MacDonald. Thats too deep to answer. But, I aint Paul, so I suppose I will just have to wait and see how this sorts itself out in eternity. When I first started reading your comment I thought it was serious and that I would have to redact the tweet. I believe that if I hadnt been a strong donor, I would not have been considered and wouldnt have vaulted through Harvest leadership over more deserving peers. I doubt that the facts will stop MacDonald from making an unrepentant comeback. You could be the pope for all I know. With so much at stake, it can be very tempting to cut corners for the sake of what is viewed as a larger good. Who started Harvest Bible Chapel? It just doesnt seem to be relevant (at least to me) to anything that this blogs about. In April 2016, Harvest acquired a permanent church facility in Aurora to allow the Aurora Campus to continue to grow, both in number and effectiveness in reaching people for Christ. Kinda hard to swear praise and honor to the sovereign terminator while feeling sorry for his victims at the same time. On April 8, 2012, their desire became reality as the North Shore Campus launched its first service at the Winnetka Community House. Sadly, many have not served well. If I find solace anywhere, its in the quiet moments of solitude and silence wherein I sense anew that the mysteries of life are vast, and that my continued pursuit of that which is beautiful and simple and true is enough for now. Shame on you. If you had anything, Dallas, youd have shared it. The idea of going back to church for real makes me nauseous. In January, Gateway held a Pastors School Seminar inside Driscolls church that was all about Church Governance. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. (Ephesians 5:11). THEY are the ones who the Lord calls upon to should humbly shepherd the flock. Maybe out of kindness because he didnt want to embarrass anyone too much? birdoftheair: Size, style, structure, statements, staff..have not guaranteed us safe and healthy churches. Theres a difference between people who hunt professionally for a living, indigenous hunters who hunt as part of their tribal culture, and rich guys like James McDonald who do it to knock another item off their bucket list. I know some people will disagree with me, but thats just my opinion. I think you are correct in noting this early Church writer's statements. Lets face it, in this era one can access whatever superior teaching is preferred in the comfort of their home or car. this time facilatated by the internet, just like the last one was with the printing press.. Well, age doesnt always equal wisdom, but it helps! holy That notion is made up nonsense, harmful. and all eternity will be jeopardized. I suppose those are the sort of preachers Jesus had in mind when He said: Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. You came to Chicago to work at Harvest Bible Chapel in Elgin with the hope of making movies through its Vertical . . Milky Way timelapse photobombed by the Aurora Borealis over Loch More in Scotland. And particularly sad to see younger church folks not benefiting from the council of senior saints. Many have joined the Done ranks done with the institutional church, but not done with Jesus. After a long season of fasting and prayer, in 2003 we were given the Elgin Campus. Oh no, we must look to whatever local shcmuck stands in our particular church pulpit and asserts that he speaks for God. Be imitators of God, as dearly loved children, and live a life of love, even as Christ loved us and gave Himself for us. 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